8/2/2015
Why load/unload a Smart car from the drivers side?Everybody seems to do it that way. tell me why? |
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| Emery Nash 10 August 2009 10:58 PM |
I know that this question has been brought up a few times before but not as a separate topic and the answers have been buried in other topics.
I ask this now because there has been a lot more experience with HDTs with Smart cars and frankly, I am not seeing a clear reason for choosing to load/unload on the driver's side rather than the curb side. My present intent is to build a drive-on/drive-off setup that will allow loading from either side. I will likely have a one side winch load-only just in case there are situation where the winch is a better choice. Along the way to this point, I have chatted with different guys with Smarter HDTs and really don't get a clear reason for preferring to load from the driver's side other than "This is the way everyone else is doing it". Yes, some cite a case, theoretical or not, of being broken down on the side of the road next to a guard rail or a ditch or a bank. In how many of those scenarios would it be reasonable to expect to be able to deploy 10'-16' of ramp plus the length of the Smart out into the highway for the amount of time the unloading would take? Also, how much of a cant to the curb side would you be working against as far as break over clearances for the Smart? In the case of wanting the driver's side of the Smart to not be next to the back of the HDT cab when being winched up (maybe for steering adjustments during the winch up) I can see that the need to winch up from the rear of the Smart does place some limitations of preference, here. There are some pluses for the driver side loading when winching is involved, though, because it puts the driver's side of the Smart to the rear of the HDT making entry/exit much easier for the driver if that is important, say, for driving it back off rather than winching it off. Other than this, the benefits seem to be in favor of the curb side load. I could just pull up in front of a driveway, side street or other readily available flat area to load/unload the Smart. I would not have to find places I could get on the wrong side of the road or clear areas in parking lots, etc. to do it. I would not have to be standing in the road/street/highway deploying/storing the ramps which could be a safety factor. When winching, the winch would be much closer to the battery bank (in Volvos) so much shorter wire could be used to power it, perhaps easing the electrical strain on the winch motor. So, I am asking for opinions and experiences, anecdotal or real, for why I should not be doing a curb side load/unload. I am also looking for deeper insight into the reasons to not drive on / drive off if it can be done safely and without straining the Smart's drive train components or the loading ramps. Tell me what you guys know and what you think and try not to be too biased for how you do it already. That is not the question. If you have considered a curb side system, please speak up and tell me why you have not gone that way. With the current availability of off the shelf components for ramps, tethers, winches and such, the less custom the build has to be so the less expensive the end product. I am planning two 10" steel C channels across the entire bed edge to edge for the bed top tire rails. These should support it all the way across with no problem. Some minor understructure and cross ties to stiffen and maintain its dimension will be necessary also with an easy-on attachment to the frame with bolted supports so it can also be removed if necessary. A bed surface of 2x6" boards laid across the bed and tethered at either end with 2" angle iron caps bolted to the frame will allow the top surface to be removed in pieces if access to components beneath the bed is ever necessary. Since the car will not actually ride on these boards they are only there for a solid surface on which other things might be carried if necessary. Being single boards they will drain nicely and allow air to circulate keeping things like snow and ice more easily melted and removed. At this point, I would like them to be made of rough cut white oak but can't afford that anywhere around here. If I really had my druthers I would use IPE wood, much harder and more durable than even white oak and looks great. So, hit me with your best and your worst thoughts so I can get the $prite onboard Clifford before October. |
| DIYGuy 11 August 2009 07:27 AM |
Drivers side because when unloading, you park with the passenger side against whatever obstructions there are (trees, guardrails, drop offs, buildings, etc.), get out on the unobstructed side and unload. While the driveway option does favor a curb-side, it's probably lower down on the list of places to unload. Most of the time, it's done in the campground with a reasonable amount of obstructions present. Ramp mounted, drive on and off, bidirectional sounds like a good idea, but the ramps, to have breakover clearance, will need to be at least 12' long. If you arch them to mitigate the breakover angle, then they get too steep to drive up.
Having built two wood beds (Designed to be temporary solutions and not permanent) using the various methods including those mentioned, I would do it a little bit differently. Both previous attempts fractured and didn't last very long. If I were to do it all over again, I'd build a perimeter out of 2x2 angle, set 2x6's cross ways and hold them down with flat stock running the perimeter. The flat stock would be secured with 1/4 x 20 bolts running through to weldnuts on the bottom of the angle. I love the weather resistant properties of IPE, but it is incredibly brittle and expensive. Brazilian mahogany is much cheaper, however, I'd still go with PT-SYP, a lot cheaper, and easily found at any box store when a piece needs replacing. I'd make a metal sub structure out of 3x5 C-Channel and square U-Bolts to hold the metal sub structure down to the frame with 3/4 plastic wood as a separator. You need 5" of clearance from the top of the frame to the underside of any deck material to have clearance for tires when the air is dumped. You'll need 7" if you retain the ubiquitous plastic fenders as your fenders of choice. The other option is cutouts that go around the existing fender/tire combination. The cutout approach often doesn't leave enough space for ramp mount points unless singled long and singled long is contraindicated when setting up car loaders or really big drom boxes. |
| MakinSmoke 11 August 2009 08:13 AM |
I don't see any issues if you go UP on the passenger side of the truck and DOWN on the drivers side except as noted below. As you mentioned, the reverse of that leaves the drivers side against the sleeper and I'm too damned big to be crawling across to get out or back into the car when I was ready to drive it off.
In my two months experience, I have yet to use the winch to "detruck" the car. Once during the loading process, I missed my marks and drove halfway down my 16' ramps and backed it back up to reposition the car on the truck. I "think" I could drive it on in a pinch but I don't. I don't mind driving on the ramps but once it gets on the back of the truck, my pulse quickens significantly. Don't need the stress. Last, I really, really count on the "bump stops" welded on the passenger side of my truck body. If I had either side entry, I would HAVE to figure out how to install removable bump stops. |
| DIYGuy 11 August 2009 08:13 AM |
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| Dennis M 11 August 2009 08:31 AM |
I debated (with myself) many of the same points you have raised regarding which side to load on. I was on my own since to the best of my knowledge no one else had loaded a Smart at that time.
I finally came down on drivers side loading for several of the reasons you mentioned - able to unload when parked by a guardrail or ditch, access to the drivers door while loaded, etc. Plus I did not see any downside to the drivers side loading, as opposed to several negatives on passenger side loading. We often leave the campground and find an open parking lot nearby where we can unload/load with no obstructions. Loading from either side would open up options, but introduce a lot of complications at the same time. I have driven the Smart off of the deck a couple of times with less than satisfactory results. One problem with first Gen Smart is the "hill holder" feature. I don't know if the current cars (or the Canadian cars) have this feature since ours is a European delivery gas engine. When you take your foot off the brake pedal they hold for about 3 seconds before releasing. This means that you cannot "slip" the brakes while coming down the ramps. No matter how slowly you release the brake pedal the brakes will hold and then suddenly release fully and WHAM, you are on the ground! Been there, done that! Now I always winch up and down. When my Mile Marker winch burned out we were on the road and unloaded. I found a shop with a wrecker, had them line up to the Volvo and use their winch to pull the car up on the deck. That time I drove it off when I got home using the hand brake to Gently let it down the ramps. Winching down is easier and more controlled. |
| Billr 11 August 2009 09:22 AM |
In my very limited experience loading/unloading the Smart, I have similar comments as stated here. I can see where I would not want to load with drivers side to cab as it will be harder to get in or out and make steering adjustments very hard when winching up.
I tried to drive it up once, and found that if I just inch it up, the car struggles to get going up the ramp, and puts a lot of wear and tear on the tranny. IMO. But in a pinch would work. To get up easier, have to hit the ramps too hard for my liking. I do drive it off. I found that once I drive the front tires off onto the ramps, I can put it in neutral and coast it off using the foot brake to keep it very smooth, inching it down. Dennis, I find if its in neutral, the hill holding feature doesn't engage like when in gear when its jerky. |
| Dennis M 11 August 2009 10:55 AM |
Interesting, I never tried it in neutral. |
| GeoLogger 11 August 2009 11:23 AM |
I don't carry a Smart Car but have loaded/unloaded many, many large quads and UTVs from trucks and trailers, including from ramps/racks across the top bed rails of lifted 4WD pickup (over 5 ft. above the ground). Sometimes drove off forwards and sometimes backed them off.
If you are going to set it up to be able to load/unload from either side, couldn't you just use whatever works best in that particular situation? Drive it up from curb side, then either drive it off driver's side or back it off passenger side. I seem to remember someone recently showing a set-up with the winch being removable - attached to a 2" receiver. Just put a receiver on both sides and use winch on either side as needed. Maybe it's not that easy, but I don't see a reason it wouldn't work that way. |
| D K. 11 August 2009 12:37 PM |
Emery Since you have the chance to start from scratch on your bed, I would consider having the Smart deck built to pivot at dead centerline of the truck like a teeter totter. This will allow you to not only load from either side by tilting it to help ramp angle, but also give you the tilted angle required to keep the newer models within the 102" width on a sideload. (Depending on which side the Smart is driven up, you can have lock pins installed into each side of the deck to alternate the tilt from left to right). If you have the winch installed on the centerline with the pivot assembly and a fairlead protruding up through the deck's middle, you can drive forward over the cable on the ground and facing the ramps and hook it up to the tail of the car to pull it up from either side of the truck. This will allow the car to be pulled completely up in either direction without running out of lead. (If you pull the car up backwards, you'd have to connect to the front and run the cable under to the back. The cable will remain tight to the deck if you have a roller edge installed under the nose of the car. The other alternative is to have the winch installed into a receiver socket to move it from left to right side of the deck. I would prefer the 1st solution of extending the cable out past the ramps and then driving over it to hook it up to the car's rear. Less things to design into the deck that way, not to mention repositioning the winch body from side to side. You would have direct line of sight of the ramps without looking over your shoulder. |
| Toterman 12 August 2009 05:39 AM |
WOW Guys!! you sure do like to take something that is very simple and make it complicated! Remember, the less moving parts and the simpler it is the less problems you will have out there on the road where we don't have any of our great shop tools to fix stuff with! I have loaded and unloaded my Smart probably 50 times now with not one issue as to where and how to get the job done. It's just not as big a problem as some would like to think! I have an extra set of hold down straps ready to go if I loose one, that's about it. JMHO David |
| DJW 12 August 2009 04:54 PM |
I am with David on this one. I have winched the Smart on and off maybe 25 times in the last 3 years. I just loaded it again last Thursday and it's still setting on Brutus. I thing you would be very happy if you would apply the KISS principal which stands for Keep It Simple Stupid. As far as I knew Red Dog was the only one driving it on. After watching the video of him loading it, I will tell you I would not nor would I let my wife do that on a bet. I believe that's an "ah S**t waiting to happen. I believe loading it that way puts way to much stress on the transmission. Now if you have one of the 08/09 Smarts and have access to the dealership system then you will be able to get the transmission replaced or the front end parts replaced when you drop it over the other side or trash the transmission. But if you have a European model pre 08's and start replacing body parts or transmissions it's going to get really expensive to say nothing of the time spent waiting around for them to arrive.
As a side note for all of the pre 08 Smart owners when it is time to replace the battery in your key fob (your running lights will flash 9 times when your battery needs replacing) once you open the fob and remove the battery you have 5 minutes to replace it or it will lose the program and the key will no longer be able to communicate with the car. If this happens you will now have a very large paper weight because without a working key you can do nothing with a Smart and there are very few places in the USA to get the Key programed. Most of the places that sold them can not help you nor can the dealerships in Canada. It cost me a $180 to get one of my key fobs programed. |
| Dennis M 12 August 2009 06:44 PM |
Hi Dennis, this is Dennis (my buddy and do that all the time)
Good advice on the key fob batteries. We replaced both of ours this year (four years old). The batteries weren't easy to find, but the local Batteries Plus store had them on the shelf. I agree with you guys on keeping it simple and winching on and off. A lot more controlled that way. I did manage to drop a front wheel off the ramp a foot off the ground while unloading this spring. A couple of rocks and a length of 2x4 and I was able to lift it enough that the frame slid down the ramp 'till the tire touched, but it was a real PIA! |
| DIYGuy 13 August 2009 06:17 PM |
For those contemplating other cars, the breakover angle for an Subaru Impreza are 15 degrees max. For the Honda Del Sol and the Mazda Miata, it is closer to 12 degrees.
I don't have a Smart to measure to calculate the breakover angles for it, but I would guess it's 13-14. |
| Emery Nash 14 August 2009 12:11 AM |
On a flat surface the 2009 Smart Passion has a 5 1/2" clearance in the center of the body pan at the midpoint between the axles. With me in it that drops to 4 3/4" of clearance. Front axle center to rear axle center is 73.5" Front axle center to front edge of the front of the car is 19" Rear axle center to rear edge of back bumper is 14" Outside track width is 61" - Rear Inside track width is 44" - front The max breakover I calculated to be 13.02 degrees but I am waiting for confirmation that this number is correct |
| Toterman 14 August 2009 05:32 AM |
One cute little trick I came across while loading was a little three inch high bump in the road placed at the right point on the ramp or the bed will lift and then let the car back down to clear that critical point if needed. You can extend the bump as long as you need to get the job done. Just take a 4x 6x6 on the band saw and cut it out to fit your needs. It's kind of like adding an arch to the ramps just where you need it. It actually takes away the need for those long ramps.
Ok, now I am giving away those trade secrets! LOL |
| DIYGuy 14 August 2009 08:52 AM |
What is the diameter of an inflated tire on a Smart car? As the cars goes over the breakover angle, the ramp is tangential to the wheels and they are on different inclines. I'll assume 20".
This gives a breakover of 14.5 degrees. It's 13.09 if the wheels are point contacts, however, I come up with an attack angle of 15 degrees, if the 4 3/4" clearance holds for the front bumper. |
| Emery Nash 14 August 2009 10:45 AM |
The 4 3/4" clearance is only at the center of the vehicle span between axles. It is a little more towards the rocker panels on either side. The front bumper is so close to the front tire that there is not much difference. Smart tires 21 1/2" front, 22 1/2" rear - tread surface to tread surface Front bumper is 6" off the ground at the lowest point but curves in and back across the middle 2/3 of the width. Rear bumper is 10" off the ground at the lowest point and also has some relief across the bottom. No air dams. Both front and rear distance from tire tread to bumper forward most point at the bottom of the bumper is 3".
It's 15" from front axle center to the forward most point of the bumper at that same height but the bumper curves down and in below that point easing the attack angle. I have been experimenting with various berms in the yard and cannot get front bumper contact on any of them even though I can high center on some of them. I need to measure the angle of them to see just what I am working with as a test comparison. SO far, none have been a problem to creep up no matter how steep they are but I still have some steeper ones to test out on, too. |
| Russ Barnes 14 August 2009 11:09 AM |
Emery, I've had my '08 Smart for about 18 months and while I am saving it for fulltiming I do have about 7,000 miles on it. One(of many) changes I made early in its life was to get rid of those skinny front wheels and tires. I bought two new rear rims, sold the like new rear tires, kept one front tire/wheel for a spare and sold the other. Then I put four equal sized Michelin 185/60-15 tires on. The ride difference is like a spring seat vs. an air ride seat, after all the air volume in a tire is another spring medium. I think I was one of the first one or two to do this on SCOA, but since them at least hundreds of others have followed this lead. There was data that said that for the "Elk" test for Norway that MB while developing their "A" series flipped the car. So their solution was skinny fronts so the car wouldn't turn as quick. They applied the same logic to the Smart, but from all research never retested with this car, plus since them put the computer braking on so if going into a turn fast it does brake selective wheels. I have twice felt the brakes automatically apply, once on gravel and once while I was reliving my race car days on a tight 90 degree turn, but for "normal" driving this is a huge improvement. Just a suggestion, Russ |
| Dennis M 14 August 2009 11:44 AM |
As you noted, the purpose of the skinnier front tires is to induce understeer in a car that inherently oversteers due to rear weight bias. If you are used to a neutral or oversteer condition it works fine, but the average driver out there has no idea what to do with oversteer, so understeer is a lot safer.
I would bet the tire choice (rather than size) is what improved the ride. Our first Gen Smart has Eco-Contis that are seriously hard. Definitions: Understeer - you hit the wall with the front of the car; Oversteer - you hit the wall with the back of the car. Personally, as a former amateur racer, I like loose a lot, however my wife is the primary driver of the Smart and she does not. BTW - don't know about the new Smarts, but on the European ones you can disable the stability control by unbolting the sensor under the seat and turning it upside down - great fun in the snow! |
| Emery Nash 14 August 2009 01:58 PM |
My 2009 has ContiPro Contact tires Front: 155/60R 15 Rear: 175/55R 15 Russ Sure, its a littlie chunky riding with the short wheelbase but its more the General uncertainness of holding a straight line on the road that makes for some extra caution. |
| D K. 14 August 2009 02:30 PM |
Emery, I had the chance to drive several different Euro micro cars within close time spans to the Smart Pre-USA import version in '99 and '01. This included the VW Lupo, some little 2 seater Peugot model and a Mercedes A Class. The Smart against comparable sized cars did very well in handling, though my first few days in Munich riding around were white knuckle from both the car's character and the mad dash traffic traits of most German Commuters darting around us. I felt much more in control with the Brabus model than the pure models, namely the higher HP for start off, but also the quality of the tires under the Brabus optioned car improved the hopping in tight turns and road groove wander. The front tires are noticeably wider on a Brabus model, along with the back. I have declined to look very close at the US models due to the engines and fuel type, so I can't tell you if they are an improvement or not from the 1st Generations. Having a need for a minimum of 3 seats in our commuter car now has cut the Smart out for several years for us, so please post back frequently about your future experiences with it. |
| Russ Barnes 14 August 2009 02:34 PM |
Emery, I know what you mean by "squirrel-ly-ness" and it certainly is exacerbated by, grooves, potholes, 18 wheelers passing and/or side winds. To say it's gone now wouldn't be true, but my experience and all others I have chatted with on 4-5 different Smart car sites - "It is MUCH, MUCH less." Mine has the power steering and I think it is also very easy to over correct. I have to remind myself to relax on the wheel, like I was still driving on a dirt track or a kart track 30 years ago. I run 28 front/36 rear in my tires and haven't played with them, but I think there is even room to tweak it a little more. There are several who have put the rear Conti's all around, but they wear poorly, they are noisy and from my automotive experience in the past; nothing rides like a Michelin. There is one guy who put the rear tires on the narrow front rims, but I think that hurts the ability to rotate your wheels and so far very few have gotten much over 20,000 miles on the Conti's since to rotate you have to take tire off rim and turn around. Like Dennis said he prefers it loose and so do I, but so far I think even with my wide tires I still have a push, as I found on gravel. It is noticeable that it feels much more comfortable getting into tight turns much harder than before. By far the greatest improvement from the tire change is in ride quality. You may have gotten used to it, but the feeling that someone is under the front end with a sledge hammer when you go over a speed bump or hit a small pot hole is virtually gone. Since I did this I have only once felt a jolt and that was a pot hole almost large enough to swallow my "White-Out". BTW, the "MDC" cruise control I installed this spring is great. Takes the leg cramps out when I drive to work - 104 miles round trip on the Interstate. Easy to do and almost a plug and play. There is another brand out there "451" but it is more difficult to install and reviews all agree that they both work fine, if you don't mind the mid $400 price. If you're interested download both instructions and I'm sure you'll pick the MDC from Smartmadness. I've played with different exhausts for mpg, don't bother. I do have a Scangauge II that let's me get better mpg if I drive using it. I've been above 48 several times and for 7k average 42.3. I also added an air horn right away, that puny OEM horn belongs on a bike. There are several other minor things I've done - like a Optima battery so when I lift/drive/winch my Smart up on my KW the acid doesn't leak into the compartment and cause problems. |
| Emery Nash 14 August 2009 04:03 PM |
Thanks, Russ.
Davek They don't have them listed in this incredible list of tires and rims Wheels / tires But some of the comments on evilution forums question if Brabus tires will fit under a standard 451 fender without some problems. While tire sizes may have a little affect on things like approach and breakover angles I am not sure they are solutions. One other thing that I have noticed on BillR's loading pictures is that the 12 degree angle on his ramps seems to flatten out quite a bit when car is centered on them due to flex in the ramps. Once the car gets on up past that, it comes back and reduces the breakover angle as the weight shifts off of the ramps and onto the bed. On the other hand MakinSmoke's 16' ramps are so overkill (4000lbs/axle rated) that they don't flex at all with the center stands. |
| D K. 14 August 2009 10:33 PM |
Thanks Emery, but we're sticking with the Scion xB for several years unless it meets an unfavorable demise. That looks like a really snug fit for adults, regardless of their friendship level or use of beano. Looks like a fun parts runner though, maybe even enough room to get a 2x4 in along side.
If you are really wanting to experiment with the Smart for break over angle etc. There are kits to air bag the struts on these cars. I'll see if I can find a link or video of them with Christina. I'll need her to translate the German tuner sites for me. |
| Toterman 15 August 2009 08:29 AM |
David |
| DJW Posted 15 August 2009 05:22 PM |
RUSS Did you have to use spacers on the front to offset the difference in front and rear rims? Are the tires rubbing when you make a tight turn? I know the guys with the pre 08's have experienced premature front wheel bearing failure do to the stress on them from the wider rims. Dennis |
| D K. 15 August 2009 08:18 PM |
The Brabus rims for the 1st Gens are wider, I don't recall there is any difference in the spindles or wheel bearings. Are the rims centered that the other owners went to, or do they have a different offset that pushes the tire out further from the hub? Most aftermarket rims I've seen are not the same offset as the factory, which may attribute to bearing failure more so than the actual width increase. |
| DJW 15 August 2009 08:36 PM |
Dave K I know if I was going to put all 4 tires that same size (to match the rear tires) I would need to put 2 steel rims from the roadster from the front of the roadster on. They will take the same size tires that are standard on the rear alloy rims. The DW did not want 2 steel rims on the front and 2 alloy rims on the rear so we decided not to go with the same size tires all the way around. The standard rear alloy rims will not fit on the front as they are to wide and will rub. You can use a standard alloy or steel front rim on the rear for a spare tire but you cannot use a rear on the front. The 08/09 rims have a different offset and will not work on the pre 08's Dennis |
| Russ Barnes 15 August 2009 10:02 PM |
Dennis, On the '08 and newer the rear rims bolt right on, with my185/60-15's nothing hits, no spacers needed. They are close to the inner wheel well, but in over a year and 5,500 miles no scrub marks. There is lot's of room on the inside and they clear the suspension fine. The Brabus uses a tire/wheel about this size, but I don't know if it is the same hub, spindle and bearing. Since there are lot's and lot's of us with wide 15's, 16's and 17's on the 451's now there so far are none reporting any bearing problems, but I have read that about the 450's, but don't they use spacers? I suppose a lot of that also has to do with how you drive it, the type roads and the loads. My use so far is pretty tame. Russ edit: |
| Emery Nash 17 August 2009 10:29 AM |
In the interest of making it easier to get measurements in the planning stages of my Smart deck, I took several series of photos with a tape measure laid out on the back frame of the truck.
I have posted them on SmugMug just for reference by others but it really makes it easier when a question comes up about something like, where is the center of the forward tandem. It also makes it easier to maintain an accurate perspective of my truck from various angles when discussing things. These photos were uploaded in their original 4k x 3k pixel format but smugmug does a nice job of presenting what you want from thumbnails to the originals. I don't recommend trying to view the originals, though, if you have a slow connection. Bon Appetite' . Full timing gallery photos. |
| DonF 20 August 2009 01:14 AM |
I like the references for cruise control, etc. in Russ' post --- thanks, Russ! Don |
| DJW 22 August 2009 03:22 PM |
Don We have cruise control on our 03 Passion and love it. We bought it in FL and drove it back to VA which was a long 1100 miles without cruise. The cruise was the first thing that we added and would not want to be without it. Dennis |
| Emery Nash 24 August 2009 03:34 PM |
Dennis, did you get the Area 451 cruise control? |
| DJW 24 August 2009 03:45 PM |
Emery No we have a European gas 450 Passion Cabiro. I got our cruise from Smartie parts out of Vancouver, Canada. Dennis |
| Toterman 25 August 2009 07:32 AM |
My 02 had the after market cruise installed when I purchased it, its great !! David |
| Russ Barnes 25 August 2009 10:22 AM |
That means it's an MDC (or some unknown European brand) since the 451 CC didn't come out until about a year ago. The MDC has been sold for several years, however it was recently re-designed and improved. Russ |
| DJW 25 August 2009 11:17 AM |
Russ I forget who makes it but it replaces the standard turn signal stock. All the controls are built right into the stock, push the end cap to engage it and rotate up or down to accelerate or coast. It looks just like the factory one that you could get in Europe. It's really a slick unit you can set alarms on it. Mine came with a very small LCD light that I mounted in the instrument panel bezel which goes from red to green when I engage it. David |
| DIYGuy 28 August 2009 07:09 AM |
A folding ramp, 12' in length, with a 12 degree bend at the hinge, should allow for a drive on/off ramp. Here's a picture The hold downs are asymmetric as the front and rear over hangs on a Smart are different. So, the car is driven up on the passenger side and down on the driver side. For an added degree of difficulty I suppose you could back up the driver's side. The ramp set back is necessary so that the mirrors clear the fairings with the same margin of error (+- 2.5") built into the loading troughs. Fenders for road spray need only riveted thin aluminum stock. For alligator protection, use 3/16 sheet. The hold downs are just standard 4" low profile loader winches, all easily accessible from the ground that strap the wheels to the deck. The car suspension isolates it from truck loads. Ramp storage is ratchet straps in the area between the car and the cab. The whole thing is secured to the truck using 6 massive U bolts and 2 1/2" bolts and pipe spacers secure the inner fender wells to the frame. You will need to build out the back end for the hitch. It's set at the minimum spacing of 60" from the drivers side mirror of the car. |
| Emery Nash 28 August 2009 07:37 PM |
Wow, Mark! This certainly seems to meet all my criteria and with some style, too. I can hardly wait to get started on it.
I hope that anyone who may see this and thinks that something in it might be "off" a bit will speak up before I start cutting steel. My design objectives have been met in this design. Drive on/off curb or driver side Thanks Mark |
| Emery Nash 02 September 2009 03:40 PM |
I take it from the complete lack of comments that I must be onto something or everyone thinks I am just ON something either way, it looks like we have a plan for a build and I can hardly wait. Wahoo!!!!!!
Funny no one even noticed the FULL Air suspension Hitch. |
| HERO Maker 18 June 2010 12:12 AM |
Well Emery. I just wanted to resurrect your posting since it has been 9 months now, and I'm sure there have been a lot of births during that time of new Smarts being loaded on our HDTs. I like your video of you loading your Smart and doing it from either side. I am thinking more of a tilt bed, and leaning more towards the curb side for load/unload. Toterman probably has the shortest ramps out there (which means easier to store) and it doesn't seem to give him any problems.
I am thinking that I would have a lot more issues being concerned about the traffic on the road, then about what the curb side condition would be for off loading in an emergency situation. If I can't offload, then I sit up on the hill and watch the action as someone else comes to my rescue. I've seen too many of those "gone in a second" crash videos! So folks, any further comments, especially the new fathers (or mothers, take your pick) regarding which side you are planning to load from? Or why you chose the side you chose, and if your thinking about changing? |
| Gargoyle 18 June 2010 06:17 AM |
I'm not sure my reasoning makes any sense but here are my thoughts. I also went with a tilt bed. IMHO, It is easier to winch from the rear than the front. Having said that, if I drag it from the back, onto a tilt bed, from the curb side, then I am stuck inside the car because the drivers door is right up against the drom box. And I am way to old and out of shape to be climbing over the seats to get out. Secondly, if I break down and am not on a major roadway, I can always unload into the street. If I am on the side of the road, I may not be able to unload on the curb side.
Those are just my thoughts....well and then there IS the most important reason: |
| Russ Barnes 18 June 2010 08:52 AM |
Phil, Right on, I totally agree with your analysis. I looked at a lot of miles of road edges, barriers and fences and concluded that the curb side unloading option has limited applications because we don't pick where we break down or have a flat so I have to question the logic that curb siders have. I also realize that in traffic that there is no way to unload on the street side, but hey, if I didn't have the Smart then I wouldn't even be thinking of unloading it and what is it going to be good for anyway - hard to haul a 22.5" in the back (I know it could fit). So I figure the Smart is my local transportation and I will unload in a campground, Wal-Mart, gas station, etc. and breakdowns will be handled like it wasn’t there. Therefore, my construction progress is 100% based on street side. However, not wanting to lose any under deck storage, wanting to keep my deck low and finding reasonable prices on eBay for 12k winches, I am not doing the tilt. I know the Smart very well and I wouldn’t trust the puny clutch to drive up so to me that made winching a no brainer and you are right, the rear is the best for that. My ramps are 8' and store behind the tires, in 102” compartments. The car carrying ramps are at 27* to have the Smart legal at 102” and the box under the raised part of the ramps holds my APU. Robb did it this way first for the '08 models and as I recall Donnie also loads from street side, albeit flat, but he has the 450 (shorter) Smart. |
| Emery Nash 18 June 2010 09:21 AM |
You both point out things that were concerns of my own in this design. Yes, shorter ramps handle easier and fat does not drive and use the passenger door (an English version of a Smart might solve this??? but could it be registered?)
My thoughts on the "roadside breakdown" scenario seemed to make it much more likely that the breakover angle would usually be too severe to unload to the driver's side unless there was a paved shoulder which, likely, would only be on city streets or roads/highways where there would be no way one would try to unload into traffic with any length ramp. Most any place else on a roadside is probably going to have a sharper roadway shoulder roll off and ditches so it's not too likely that one could get far enough off of the roadway to get the necessary clearance from traffic. Having a design that makes it possible to unload to either side (environmental conditions permitting) greatly helps that issue but makes most simple tilt bed designs inapplicable. As for winching up and being able to steer a bit up the ramp, inside or outside through the window, makes loading from the driver's side pretty mandatory for the clearance to the truck cab reasons Garg mentioned. This was a very big design issue for me. This made driving up from the curb or driving up backwards from the street side, just about the only choices. As for the whole "broken down on the side of the road" scenario validation; I asked myself how many times do I have to find myself in this situation with any possibility of being able to offload into the roadway for the design limitations this imposes to be economical. Also, what are the scenarios that are permitted if I don't have this design constraint and how likely are each to be applicable compared to this one. Honestly, I found several that really challenged my fears of being broken down and needing to get the Smart off the deck. Among these was the much more frequent events of loading and unloading in a variety of places and under quite a varied set of environmental circumstances. As examples of this, look at the difference in the planes that the truck tires are on and the foot of the ramps are sitting on in the loading and unloading pictures and videos on rvbuddy.smugmug.com/RV-Full-TIming. In these scenarios, the most common denominator that kept jumping out at me was about breakover angles, incline rate and typical locations to load/unload. It just seemed that I was letting my fears drive me into a much smaller box of possibilities of use. After all, what would I do if I did not have the Smart at all? Having it and not being able to get it offloaded when broken down was no different. Personally, I did not get the Smart to have in case I broke down. I got it to have to use as much as possible wherever we are, for both economy and convenience. A breakdown is not either of these. If I am still really desperate for some sort of transportation just in case, a bicycle or small scooter might be better than walking and hung on the back of the trailer, could be easily access under almost all circumstances. I have not seen much mention in these threads about the possibility of making a double tilt bed, which might help soothe the fears a bit more and certainly open up more load/unload locations. I think someone has mentioned it and I thought that it came up early in the Donnie Barnes Wonderbed dialogues. I think someone else also talked about it having a center hydraulic piston and pinned hinge points on either end. Just pin the end to pivot and let the ram do the rest... but I digress. I really wanted a non-mechanical solution, if possible, with a mechanical backup if desired. So, add a winch to what I have and it can be loaded from either side. Change the attachment method to the car a little, and it can be winched up front first or back first. |