Automatic versus Manual
Automatic versus Manual |
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| Frazierx3 07 December 2010 02:37 PM |
Yes it's the newbie again and I am still doing all my research. I have read the resource guides, and value what Jack, Wayland, Pipe among many others have devoted to these forums. That said, let me say I am becoming very discouraged. I have never driven an auto or semi-auto. I am very used to 10 and 13 speeds, but in the preparing for my ultimate toter I was leaning more towards an auto of some sort, mainly for the purpose of one of my passengers (only that I would trust mind you) could help with some of the driving. I used to be able to drive all day, only stopping for fuel but now I just can't mentally do that anymore. I know when I'm tired and ready to stop or let someone else drive a while and it sure would help if I have a automatic. Yes anybody can drive or learn to drive a manual, but only if they WANT to. Put another pedal on the floor and they tend to shy away. Bear with me I promise I am leading to my question. I am definitely not knocking or trashing anyone with one preference over the other. I am half-way through reading EVERY topic on HDT forums and so far it seems that the majority of discussion on auto trans is problems. Some minor but a lot major. Now I am leaning back towards searching for a manual shift. I realize most of the rigs purchased were around 400k-800k miles when bought used and it is somewhat of a gamble. But all the comments about problems is enough to scare someone off. There are ways to determine condition of engine but how about a transmission. Maybe trucks are typically good for over a million miles, but automatics have a life of around 500k. Also I see that most of the problems posted have Volvo listed as their rig. Is this just typical of Volvo? Please someone get me back on track of desiring an auto before I fall back to the old tried and true. Tell me how to evaluate the condition of an automatic without spending a fortune. What to look for? What to shy away from? Everyone that talks about shifting problems, am I going to experience this on a test truck and be told that this is normal? I realize all the posts regarding problems and how they were resolved are very important to readers but can we hear a few posts with positive remarks. If anyone understands my concerns and is willing to respond I appreciate it. No way am I trying to defend one type over another like in a Ford/Chevy/Dodge war. I just don't look forward to buying used then having to spend thousands on transmission designs that don't hold up in general. Just saying. Jeff |
| Jack Mayer 07 December 2010 02:44 PM |
I've had my AutoShift for 8+ years without a SINGLE issue. Nothing.
Three of those years it was our daily driver. Is that positive enough? |
| Darryl&Rita 07 December 2010 03:10 PM |
Jeff The biggest reason you see mostly problem posts, is guys that aren't having problems don't post about a lack of trouble. Thy are only a manual transmission, with a collection of wiring, sensors and motors. The reason for the Volvo lean, is they are the most common make on here, by far. You just have to remember, there is no problem on a truck that money won't fix. |
| Frazierx3 07 December 2010 03:22 PM |
I realize the part about people that don't have problems don't post, but do you see where I am concerned after seeing all the problems people seem to be having? Just makes you wonder. But thanks for the response and you to Jack.
Hey Jack |
| Bill B 07 December 2010 03:40 PM |
Fraz - Good points - I have no where near Jack's experience. But a few observations
Volvo's are the majority here - Therefore, most of the problems are going to be Volvos. Other than a direct question - Does anyone ever post - and this is my own experience. We left Lansing MI drove to Yuma, AZ and back in 3 weeks in April to May, picked up our new trailer, went by Jack's place in CO and a few other places. Trip total 5400 miles. We went to 2 local SKP rallies - 400 miles. We left Lansing and went to northern MI to friends a house for 3 weekends - 750 miles. I towed a buddies trailer home (he does not have an HDT yet) - 240 miles. I towed his trailer back to the dealership for warranty work - 240 miles. WE went to Escapade for a week - then to Northern MI and then home - 750 miles LOL - People usually post when they have problems and are looking for answers - or when we think that there is something to share with the others - or Pipe's (J W Morgan) son gets a Blue Ribbon and he is a PROUD PAPA. So most of what you are seeing is yes, people with problems but ~1500 or more rigs out there. So, just my take on the postings. This place is like a giant campfire with 10,000 friends. |
| Frazierx3 07 December 2010 03:53 PM |
Thanks Bill, it's working. I drive a Chevy and am very pleased with the service I have gotten for over 100,000 miles, and probably wouldn't post about it, but people that have less success will post their problems. Thanks for the encouragement. jf |
| Russ Barnes 07 December 2010 04:24 PM |
Fraz, OK, my truck has a lot of miles (nearly 1.5 mil) and somewhere along the line a rebuilt trans was installed. Also just before I got it a new clutch was installed by a KW dealer. I too have read the posts about what fails and try to get an idea of when, that is why this site is so great. On my T2000 the floor design makes it difficult to get to the top of the transmission and my installing dual exhaust makes it more difficult to get to the bottom side of the transmission. I have modified the floor, but that's another subject that is truck brand and model specific, not about the AutoShift topic like you are asking. After reading all the posts I decided to be proactive and do major PM. I shopped eBay and found a Eaton rebuilt X-Y shifter, never installed for about $175 (I think that was the cost, but even if buying from dealers it runs about $400 +/- for a factory rebuilt). Then again on eBay I bought a new ECU that a repair shop had that they used as a plug in to troubleshoot A/S trans and the guy said there are less and less Gen I he repairs like I have so he sold that to me for about $150. Then I went to Truck Pro and bought a new PIN, three sensors, one reverse ball and at KW a reverse switch - all about $400, and those were the items that this site reported as failing. I also kept the parts I removed since they all worked fine and now I have full back-up - just in case! I'm like you and wanted a auto, but I did want the three pedal for easier backing and hooking. And so for about $700 everything that can fail and has been reported here has been replaced. Yes I did it myself which saved BIG bucks vs. a dealer, but now I also know where everything goes, that every connector has been cleaned and properly greased. That every connector has a tie wrap around it so they never can come unconnected and unless he@@ freezes over this should outlive me and all the mileage I will ever roll on. They aren't hard to work on, just dirty and hard to get to - depending on the truck. Volvo's and Pete's have removable floor pan access openings which make it easier. T2000's don't, except now mine has a 24" x 22" access. NOTE: I have over 30 years in the marine field and strongly suggest that you don't mess with a balsa core floor unless you discuss with an expert how to do it so it doesn't delaminate. I know my floor in that area is now stronger than original and the epoxy coating on all the edges will keep any moisture out - which is a major cause of delamination. Just another opinion, Russ |
| waylandlong 07 December 2010 04:44 PM |
Biggest reasons for buying an auto-style tranny.
1. Flexibility of drivers. Anybody can drive it. 2. Resale. The auto tranny truck will RE-sell faster if YOU are trying to hand sell your personal truck. There are several folks on this forum that will not buy a manual tranny. Period. 3. Initial cost. The auto tranny equipped HDTs are cheaper when buying them in the commercial market. As you search for a truck you will notice that an AutoShift/UltraShift truck is bringing less money in the HDT market place. I realize #2 & #3 are DIRECTLY contradicting. But please realize that an auto tranny HDT is LESS valuable until it reaches our niche market, and then the "cost to value" flips. This is a current dynamic that the buyer has to realize and think through. After the truck is singled, detailed, built, hitch added, and/or used in our "personal market" (i.e.. A "dealer" is always held to ALOT higher standard than when someone is buying from an individual. |
| Billr 07 December 2010 05:09 PM |
Fraz, We have an Gen 1 A/S and when we got the truck, I wanted the auto and didn't want to mess with shifting. So that limited us on trucks to look at and cost more to buy. Now that we have had it for 3 years and put about 20K on it, I love the A/S, glad I can just let out the clutch (which I don't mind one bit and prefer for hook up) and step on the gas and sit back. I did have a few issues last year where it would get confused and hunt gears, once it stranded me when it stuck in 5th gear and then would not re -start. We were still on the farm where I stored it and was able to tow it back down the laneway. I was able to trouble shoot it with the help of some manuals off the forum I have printed in the truck and called Eaton too. Had to replace the XY shifter and power module. Total cost was about $600 for the parts. I replaced the parts and it has been flawless since. It solved even more minor problems I have had since I got the There is far more to go wrong with the A/S since so much is electrically control than a manual which has none. So you have to decide if convenience is worth the extra cash and possible problems down the road. Considering our truck has over 750K on it, that little XY shifter has had to shift a Zillion times, So not a stretch to think it may need to be replaced. |
| Jack Mayer 07 December 2010 06:33 PM |
Well, heck, if I had a Chevy I wouldn't be posting about it either (now, I hope you know I'm just kidding....kind of.) |
| army 07 December 2010 08:21 PM |
If you read this post I made a while back it explains why I sold mine... QUOTE (Bluenoser @ Aug 3 2010, 10:16 PM)
A good part of it was the FreedomLine. Not sure what I'm going to next , but now I have another winter to think about it as I'm done my trips for this year and likely won't get away with the fiver in early 2011 like we would like to. Work is still getting in the way. This is all part of figuring out how I want to be set up for retirement. quote: Jack Mayer Posted Today, 09:08 AM Jack - My 42ft trailer just fits on my RV pad at home and has to be within inches of my garage wall to be off the street. When trying to maneuver in tight spots and over the curbs this transmission is jumpy and unpredictable since the computer controls the clutch. Gives you quite a thrill when it creeps it's back tires over the curb and then wants to go and the back of the trailer is only 3 ft. from the garage. I couldn't see having to unhook every time I get home and have to use another truck to park the trailer, and we like having it here in the off season. - I found acceleration in the city and onto highway on ramps frustrating and slow as the computer is trying to sense what load is behind it before it starts accelerating and shifting a lot. Then when it finally hits around 8 you feel the power come on and things pick up. I thought something may have been wrong with it but after comparing notes with a long haul trucker with a similar truck it sounds like mine is normal. I found I was putting it in manual mode most of the time and shifting it myself. - I had an occasional trouble where it wouldn't go into gear, but I think I got that cured with the help of the forum. It sure is a helpless frustrating feeling though when it won't. - In slippery situations as you could see by my Craven post it's useless. No way to rock it out if you need too. I wasn't stuck by much, a jerk from a couple of Chevy 4x4's got me going and I was hooked to my trailer at the time. - We also have a seasonal site at a lake nearby and we park on a grassed site which slopes downhill in the front. It's very tight getting in and out and again when trying to maneuver carefully backing uphill the tranny will engage the clutch unpredictably either sending me backwards at too fast a rate or breaking traction causing it to spin ruts into the grass. A locking diff would have certainly helped here, but mine hasn't got that. So Jeff, it may depend on which auto you wind up with! This was my dream truck, right color and everything, just turned out to be the wrong tranny! Happy shopping! |
| Frazierx3 07 December 2010 09:55 PM |
Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement and your opinions. I feel much better now. Like I had said earlier I have never driven an auto or semi-auto and am looking forward to doing so. Trouble right now is finding a decent truck. You guys must have grabbed them all up. I may go to Charlotte and Greensboro in the next week to a dealer solely for the purpose of just test driving a used truck with one of the auto trans. I will call first to see who has anything on their lot. On another note someone tell me how to include my information at the bottom of a post. I am really illiterate when it comes to computers. The part I am referring to is I notice for example in blue ink at the bottom of most posts it lists your ride, your RV, your pets etc. What section is that called so I can edit or add info? Again thanks to all of you for your help. Jeff |
| Darryl&Rita 07 December 2010 10:32 PM |
Jeff What we ended up doing involved sitting in a lot of trucks, testing control layout, cabin "feel", etc. It doesn't have to be your dream truck, it just has to help you narrow your search. To add your signature; at the top of the page, click on "My Controls." This will take you to a page with a bunch of links on the left. Click on "Edit your Signature," and fire away. It will take a while after you save to be able to re-enter the forum, but be patient. |
| Bob86ZZ4 07 December 2010 11:18 PM |
Before I bought my truck I stopped at the local Kenworth shop and visited with the service manager. I talked pretty extensively about transmissions. My son is an over-the-road truck driver and told me the "real" truckers call AutoShifts "girlie" transmissions. I didn't want my son to think his dad is a girlie-man. The service guy said he's got many years running this shop. He said he's never had to go inside an AutoShift box for repairs. He said if a driver wants to cause damage to a manual he can do it. But he can't damage the inside of an auto on purpose. Remember, lots of truck drivers drive company trucks and it's not uncommon for them to be mad at the boss and try to damage the truck (that's what he told me). He said I'd be better off buying a used truck with an a/s since it's more likely to not have any inside trans problems than a fully manual box. He said he didn't have a preference on the two peddle over the 3 pedals. My son's company is a rather small one. Most of the trucks are company owned and manual 10's in Freightliner Columbias. They did buy a couple 2 peddle autos. Their shop manage told me he doesn't care for them because they've had some u-joints fail on them. He isn't sure if the drivers might be not using them right though. They haul dry bulk (flour, sugar, starch) and use blowers on PTOs and he's afraid some of the guys might have been leaving the trans in gear with the brakes locked on? Is that possible? I don't know. Maybe I'm not understanding him too. Anyhow, my truck had 53,xxx miles on it when I bought it last year (never was a commercial truck, it was ordered from Freightliner to be built into a t/c). I've put about 15k or so on it. Love the Gen II AutoShift. Haven't had any issues with it at all. I sure do like not having to row the gears. My son can call me a girlie man but I can still take him. Punk. |
| roadfitter 08 December 2010 01:28 AM |
HI JEFF I was going to suggest like Bob mentioned to go in to your local KW/Volvo dealer and kick some tires. Talk to the "Shop Forman" that way you know your taking to the real thing. Let him know what your involved in and your main concerns. I have found over the last 10 yrs. that these truck dealers far and away are much more helpful than the 4wheeler crowd! I like to go over to see them after or around 6:00 pm. That way the night shift is in full swing and they usually have time to talk. On your second visit I would bring a box of DONUTS for the crew, a nice gesture. The other thing I would do would be to chase down the Eaton, Allison transmission authorized service centers nearest you. Same thing try to time your visit, day or night for a slack time if possible and try to developed a list of questions. On your tire kicking adventures, if you have an idea of the make truck you want right down a couple of "VIN" numbers. That way you can step up to the parts desk, in person or by phone and check out the cost of parts. "ALL' dealers live and die with VIN numbers. If you want to know anything you GOTTA HAVE A VIN.!! I have gained a lot of information from "TRUCK GRAVE YARDS" / DISMANTILLARS Again the shop Forman knows a bunch. Trany's, engines and the different issues between brands. Now I will say it is not always easy to get to talk to the shop people or formants. That's why I say late in the day or the night shift people, fewer eyes -ears around. Well good luck and remember the more people you talk to the better. Every one has a point of view. |
| Bob86ZZ4 08 December 2010 08:44 AM |
Another trick is to watch the back of the shop area and see if you can figure out when the mechanics take their break. Most union shops have regular break times scheduled for the guys and they will all gather someplace out back to shoot the s&*$. Roll up with a box of bakery cookies or pastries and tell them you're planning on buying a truck to pull a camper. That'll get them interested. |
| RickW 08 December 2010 10:03 AM |
Jeff I think the biggest fear is not the complete understanding of the AutoShift. You have been around trucks but not AutoShifts. There is a lot of fear when buying used and you do not completely understand it. That was my HDT buying experience. was fearful of buying a truck and then having to replace the motor or transmission. I had never been around HDTs before buying one. If you read about my buying saga you will find that my worst fears came true even after doing everything right. But it happens and even when you buy new, things can and do go wrong. I have had my HDT for 9 months now. I n that time I have done 15k miles. The only problem I have had with the AutoShift was 1 time when slowing down to make a left turn the truck was in neutral and coasting, I made the left and was then immediately on a road that I was traveling down hill. The truck would not go in to gear when I gave it some throttle. I was picking up speed going down the hill. I think the computer got confused with me slowing down for the turn and then the truck picking up speed with out being in gear. Once I pulled over and came to a stop the computer was able to figure out what was going on and has worked fine ever since (almost 2k miles ago). In the future if I find myself in a similar position I now know to burp the throttle so that the truck drops back in gear while still on level ground before I hit the hill and it confuses the computer. |
| L'iil Black Dog 08 December 2010 11:43 AM |
Jeff, The AutoShift transmissions are just automated 10 speed trannies, it's like removing your arm for shifting. You still control the initial momentum "clutch to start and stop" but the automation only controls sequential shifting, you can still shift manually if you like. Hence saying the AutoShift is just an automated shifting manual transmission! Most of us with trucks past 750k miles have or will need to replace the x/y shifter pack just a given, mines was under $250 at my Freightliner dealer four bolts and 15mins later it was done easy access to mine! Now the Ultrashift and FreedomLine are a bird of a different color! I keep hearing people worried about replacing/repairing engines or trans, if you follow the pre purchase checklist advise on this forum it would be very hard to not know what you are buying! Besides if budget cannot do a rebuild on engine or trans, you can find used low mileage units from wrecks very easily! Right now there are low mileage Cummins ISX's for $6500 or Cat's from $4500 or Series 60's from $3500 all inspected and test run from a retailer in Oregon. They also sell trannies, just another option if needed. Curt |
| Jack Mayer 08 December 2010 01:04 PM |
The X/Y is seemingly the most common issue on the AutoShifts. Other than bad harness contacts. I've now crossed the 600K line on my truck. With zero roadside problems in 8 years. I believe in "preemptive" maintenance - meaning that on certain things I'm likely to replace it even though it is not "broke yet". The X/Y is likely going to fall into that in the next year or so..... JMO. The last preemptive thing I did was the air governor. The next thing is my 8+ year old batteries. I figure I'm pushing my luck on them. Notice the pattern? I replace things that will totally disable the truck. BTW, for what it is worth, my choice on my next truck will be 1) Ishift (not likely ) 2) Ultrashift 3) AutoShift 4) FreedomLine....maybe. |
| hjsdds 08 December 2010 09:33 PM |
Another posting of "what works."
Bought a truck with an Autoshift Gen I and 836,000 miles. 5 years later and 40,000 more miles no problem with an Autoshift. |
| trucksaledave 08 December 2010 09:42 PM |
As I keep reading all this 'Automatic verses Manual" posts I will just keep my "Hybrid" half automatic/half manual SUPER 10. The next best transmission to a automatic.
Of course, we all know the super 10 shifts like, 1,3,5,7,9 by moving the shifter and all other gears by flipping the selector. Just though I would add this twist to the mix. And always...JMO |
| Jack Mayer 08 December 2010 10:47 PM |
Well, unless you have a "Top2". |
| Raquel 08 December 2010 11:03 PM |
Oh gosh, you guys! How many different types of transmissions/shifters are there? I think I'll just try to stick to an AutoShift ... ... or ... FreedomLine |
| trucksaledave 09 December 2010 07:26 AM |
Over the years, most drivers do not like the TOP 2 Option because of the "timing" of the up-shift or down shift. They lose to much road speed or RPM's. Now this is a tractor hauling gross weights up 80,000. May not be a issue with our weights.
I do not like the option...my self. Super 10....you either love it or hate. JMO |
| Jack Mayer 09 December 2010 09:28 AM |
Super 10 is fine. I have no issue with it at all, unlike some others. Many like the 13-speed better. |
| Louh 09 December 2010 11:16 AM |
I have the super 10 top 2 and don't really care for the "top 2" part of it. It works great but I forget it's a top 2 at times and try to shift it on my own. (I like being the one telling it when to shift!) Other than that it has been great. If you leave the Jake on it will shift quicker and you won't loose all the speed especially on a hill. Of course you can shift that way too but I wouldn't advise it for the novice.
If there was a way to disable it, I would. If anybody knows if it's possible, I would like to know |
| trucksaledave 09 December 2010 04:51 PM |
It can be cut off in the ECM. Many do have a OEM go in and cut in off.
I am like you, being in control. For a super 10 being such a simple transmission to work, it can very quickly make you look like you have never shifted a Eaton-fuller before. Paid my dues. JMO |
| TomMarik 09 December 2010 06:05 PM |
Meritor 12 speed Autoshift. Six years and sixty thousand without a single problem. |
| DonF 12 December 2010 04:22 AM |
FWIW, I've heard the FreedomLine is no longer in production (since 2008 or so?).
We love ours -- I like the rocker's ergonomics over the membrane buttons of A/S. So far, we've run from 387K (in 2007) to 454K just this last week -- almost 70K miles in the 3+ years of use, no problem to report. As others have mentioned, the hardest part is to "figure out" how to "feather" the clutch for tight-fit backing, which can be done using two-pedal operation to (carefully) allow slow/steady movement. |